Discussion:
Determinism and the Corpus Callosum
(too old to reply)
michael sylvester
2006-03-30 18:46:30 UTC
Permalink
With so much talk about the thickness of the CC explaining Gay
behavior and explainimg greater use of the two hemispheres,it would appear that the biological circumstances of one's birth seals one fate.

Michael Sylvester,PhD
Daytona Beach,Florida




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Steven Specht
2006-04-03 12:00:31 UTC
Permalink
Michael,
Would you please provide a reference for your assertion that the
thickness of one's corpus callosum is associated with homosexuality?
Thank you.
-S
Post by michael sylvester
With so much talk about the thickness of the CC explaining Gay
behavior and explainimg greater use of the two hemispheres,it would
appear that the biological circumstances of one's birth seals one
fate.
Michael Sylvester,PhD
Daytona Beach,Florida
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========================================================
Steven M. Specht, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of Psychology
Utica College
Utica, NY 13502
(315) 792-3171

"Mice may be called large or small, and so may elephants, and it is
quite understandable when someone says it was a large mouse that ran up
the trunk of a small elephant" (S. S. Stevens, 1958)


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michael sylvester
2006-04-03 15:15:06 UTC
Permalink
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Steven Specht <***@utica.edu>
Reply-To: "Teaching in the Psychological Sciences" <***@acsun.frostburg.edu>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 07:58:26 -0400
Post by Steven Specht
Michael,
Would you please provide a reference for your assertion that the
thickness of one's corpus callosum is associated with homosexuality?
Thank you.
-S
It either came from LeVay or check out a Brain/Mind video
.The brain /mind video also states that more homosexuals are born
during the time of war.

Michael Sylvester,PhD
Daytona Beach,Florida





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Steven Specht
2006-04-03 15:36:35 UTC
Permalink
Michael,
When you make such an assertion, you really should be able to (in fact,
in a way, it is your responsibility) provide a specific academic
reference. It is my recollection (although I could be wrong) that
LeVay's work makes no mention of differences at the level of the corpus
callosum. Again, can you provide a specific scholarly reference for
your assertion about the corpus callosum?
Thanks.
-S
Post by michael sylvester
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
Reply-To: "Teaching in the Psychological Sciences"
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 07:58:26 -0400
Post by Steven Specht
Michael,
Would you please provide a reference for your assertion that the
thickness of one's corpus callosum is associated with homosexuality?
Thank you.
-S
It either came from LeVay or check out a Brain/Mind video
.The brain /mind video also states that more homosexuals are born
during the time of war.
Michael Sylvester,PhD
Daytona Beach,Florida
________________________________________________________________
Sent via FalconMail e-mail system at falconmail.dbcc.edu
---
To unsubscribe send a blank email to
========================================================
Steven M. Specht, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of Psychology
Utica College
Utica, NY 13502
(315) 792-3171

"Mice may be called large or small, and so may elephants, and it is
quite understandable when someone says it was a large mouse that ran up
the trunk of a small elephant" (S. S. Stevens, 1958)


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michael sylvester
2006-04-03 16:26:06 UTC
Permalink
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Steven Specht <***@utica.edu>
Reply-To: "Teaching in the Psychological Sciences" <***@acsun.frostburg.edu>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 11:35:48 -0400
Post by Steven Specht
Michael,
When you make such an assertion, you really should be able to (in fact,
in a way, it is your responsibility) provide a specific academic
reference. It is my recollection (although I could be wrong) that
LeVay's work makes no mention of differences at the level of the corpus
callosum. Again, can you provide a specific scholarly reference for
your assertion about the corpus callosum?
Thanks.
-S
Post by michael sylvester
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
Reply-To: "Teaching in the Psychological Sciences"
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 07:58:26 -0400
Post by Steven Specht
Michael,
Would you please provide a reference for your assertion that the
thickness of one's corpus callosum is associated with homosexuality?
Thank you.
-S
It either came from LeVay or check out a Brain/Mind video
.The brain /mind video also states that more homosexuals are born
during the time of war.
Michael Sylvester,PhD
Daytona Beach,Florida
I am sorry that I am unable to cite a specific study where the info was stated.But be assured that it is somehere out there.
As a matter of fact most of my thoughts on post have been validated by other tipsters.I have a PhD in Experimental and read my lips,it is out there.I am not making this up.
Michael Sylvester,PhD
Daytona Beach,Florida




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Steven Specht
2006-04-03 16:47:07 UTC
Permalink
Sorry, I don't accept that attitude from my students; I will certainly
not accept it from my colleagues (no matter what degree they have
earned. A degree doesn't give you license to be irresponsible); and I
don't expect my colleagues to accept that attitude from me.
Post by michael sylvester
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
Reply-To: "Teaching in the Psychological Sciences"
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 11:35:48 -0400
Post by Steven Specht
Michael,
When you make such an assertion, you really should be able to (in
fact,
in a way, it is your responsibility) provide a specific academic
reference. It is my recollection (although I could be wrong) that
LeVay's work makes no mention of differences at the level of the
corpus
callosum. Again, can you provide a specific scholarly reference for
your assertion about the corpus callosum?
Thanks.
-S
Post by michael sylvester
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
Reply-To: "Teaching in the Psychological Sciences"
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 07:58:26 -0400
Post by Steven Specht
Michael,
Would you please provide a reference for your assertion that the
thickness of one's corpus callosum is associated with homosexuality?
Thank you.
-S
It either came from LeVay or check out a Brain/Mind video
.The brain /mind video also states that more homosexuals are born
during the time of war.
Michael Sylvester,PhD
Daytona Beach,Florida
I am sorry that I am unable to cite a specific study where the info
was stated.But be assured that it is somehere out there.
As a matter of fact most of my thoughts on post have been validated by
other tipsters.I have a PhD in Experimental and read my lips,it is out
there.I am not making this up.
Michael Sylvester,PhD
Daytona Beach,Florida
________________________________________________________________
Sent via FalconMail e-mail system at falconmail.dbcc.edu
---
To unsubscribe send a blank email to
========================================================
Steven M. Specht, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of Psychology
Utica College
Utica, NY 13502
(315) 792-3171

"Mice may be called large or small, and so may elephants, and it is
quite understandable when someone says it was a large mouse that ran up
the trunk of a small elephant" (S. S. Stevens, 1958)


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Stephen Black
2006-04-04 15:26:10 UTC
Permalink
Michael Sylvester was challenged about his remark of "talk" of an association between the
Post by michael sylvester
It either came from LeVay or check out a Brain/Mind video
I thought this was interesting, so I looked into it. There is no published work, as far as I can
find, on the corpus callosum and sexual orientation. However, Allen and Gorski (1992) did
report that the anterior commissure was larger in homosexual than in heterosexual men.
The anterior commissure is a bundle of nerve fibers which, like the corpus callosum,
connects the two hemispheres of the brain. However, it's smaller than the corpus callosum
and deeper within the brain. Its function is largely unknown. So the claim is close, but no
cigar.

Curiously, though, if the claim is googled rather than pubmedded, references to such a
finding by (yes) the neurophysiologist Simon LeVay and the neuropsychologist Sandra
Witelson turn up. For example, LeVay is described in an article by Chandler Burr in the
_The Atlantic Monthly_ in March, 1993 as carrying out an MRI study of the corpus callosum
and sexual orientation. Some reports are even more specific. An article at the gayline
website (http://www.gayline.gen.nz/natural.htm) says that LeVay discovered that the corpus
callosum "was bigger in gays than straight men".

Since I could find no such study, I went right to the top, and wrote to Dr. LeVay. Through the
magic of the Internet, he replied almost immediately. He said he never made any such
discovery and never published on the topic. He did say that at one time he worked on an
MRI study, as reported by Burr, but they didn't obtain any clear results and didn't publish it.

So where did the misinformation come from? Another site repeats the exact passage I
found at the gayline website, but this time credits it to the book "Mapping the Brain" by Rita
Carter, from where gayline probably copied it without attribution. We have the book in our
library, but it's out at the moment, so I can't check to see how she came to provide this
misinformation.

What about the claim about Sandra Witelson's finding (at McMaster, from whence I come)?
For example, Maclean's Magazine (the Canadian _Time_ wannabe) for January 22, 1996
(available on-line at the Canadian encyclopedia) says "Witelson and her research partners
illustrated another dimension of brain differences in November, 1994. In a study involving
21 people, they showed that part of the corpus callosum in the brains of some homosexual
men was 13 percent larger than in the heterosexual men".

Seems too specific to be made up. But where's the pub? Dr. Witelson hasn't yet replied to
my query. But I've discovered in the meantime that this refers to a presentation she made
with Scamvougeras as first author at the Miami meeting of the Society for Neuroscience in
1994. I can't get the abstract, but it was cited as recently as 1993 by Rahman and Wilson
who say the study was MRI and confirm the Maclean's account. Given the potential interest
in such a finding, I find it peculiar that they never published it.

Stephen

References


Allen, L., & Gorski, R. (1992). Sexual orientation and the size of the anterior commissure in
human brain. Proceedings of the National Academy of Science, 89, 7199-7202.

Rahman, Q., & Wilson, G. (2003). Born gay? The psychobiology of human sexual
orientation. Personality and Individual Differences, 34, 1337-1382.

Scamvougeras, A., Witelson, S. et al (1994). Sexual orientation and anatomy of the corpus
callosum. Society for Neuroscience Abstracts, 20, 1425.


______________________________
Stephen L. Black, Ph.D.
Department of Psychology
Bishop's University
Lennoxville, QC J1M 1Z7
Canada
***@ubishops.ca

Dept web page: www.ubishops.ca/ccc/div/soc/psy
TIPS discussion list for psychology teachers at:
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Stephen Black
2006-04-04 15:38:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Black
But I've discovered in the meantime that this refers to a presentation she made
with Scamvougeras as first author at the Miami meeting of the Society for Neuroscience
in 1994. I can't get the abstract, but it was cited as recently as 1993 by Rahman and
Wilson
Darn! I mean it was cited as recently as 2003. At least I got it right in the reference.
Post by Stephen Black
Rahman, Q., & Wilson, G. (2003). Born gay? The psychobiology of human sexual
orientation. Personality and Individual Differences, 34, 1337-1382.
______________________________
Stephen L. Black, Ph.D.
Department of Psychology
Bishop's University
Lennoxville, QC J1M 1Z7
Canada
***@ubishops.ca

Dept web page: www.ubishops.ca/ccc/div/soc/psy
TIPS discussion list for psychology teachers at:
faculty.frostburg.edu/psyc/southerly/tips/index.htm
______________________________________



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Joan Warmbold
2006-04-04 21:09:24 UTC
Permalink
Possibly Scamvougeras et.al. work wasn't published because it didn't stand
up to rigorous scrutiny for full publication? Just a thought. BTW, I'm
continually baffled at why, when differences are discovered between
adults' brains structure and chemistry, the assumption is almost always
that this difference existed from birth? As we all know, literally
thousands of studies have revealed the crucial role of early experience in
sculpting our brain--i.e., brain plasticity. So why isn't this discussed
in these publications as a viable alternative hypothesis?

Joan Warmbold
Post by Stephen Black
Michael Sylvester was challenged about his remark of "talk" of an
association between the
corpus callosum and sexual orientation. He was asked for a reference. He
Post by michael sylvester
It either came from LeVay or check out a Brain/Mind video
I thought this was interesting, so I looked into it. There is no published
work, as far as I can
find, on the corpus callosum and sexual orientation. However, Allen and
Gorski (1992) did
report that the anterior commissure was larger in homosexual than in
heterosexual men.
Since I could find no such study, I went right to the top, and wrote to
Dr. LeVay. Through the
magic of the Internet, he replied almost immediately. He said he never
made any such
discovery and never published on the topic. He did say that at one time he
worked on an
MRI study, as reported by Burr, but they didn't obtain any clear results
and didn't publish it.
What about the claim about Sandra Witelson's finding (at McMaster, from
whence I come)?
For example, Maclean's Magazine (the Canadian _Time_ wannabe) for January
22, 1996
(available on-line at the Canadian encyclopedia) says "Witelson and her
research partners
illustrated another dimension of brain differences in November, 1994. In a
study involving
21 people, they showed that part of the corpus callosum in the brains of
some homosexual
men was 13 percent larger than in the heterosexual men".
Seems too specific to be made up. But where's the pub? Dr. Witelson hasn't
yet replied to
my query. But I've discovered in the meantime that this refers to a
presentation she made
with Scamvougeras as first author at the Miami meeting of the Society for
Neuroscience in
1994. I can't get the abstract, but it was cited as recently as 1993 by
Rahman and Wilson
who say the study was MRI and confirm the Maclean's account. Given the
potential interest
in such a finding, I find it peculiar that they never published it.
Stephen
References
Allen, L., & Gorski, R. (1992). Sexual orientation and the size of the
anterior commissure in
human brain. Proceedings of the National Academy of Science, 89,
7199-7202.
Rahman, Q., & Wilson, G. (2003). Born gay? The psychobiology of human
sexual
orientation. Personality and Individual Differences, 34, 1337-1382.
Scamvougeras, A., Witelson, S. et al (1994). Sexual orientation and
anatomy of the corpus
callosum. Society for Neuroscience Abstracts, 20, 1425.
______________________________
Stephen L. Black, Ph.D.
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David Epstein
2006-04-04 21:30:55 UTC
Permalink
BTW, I'm continually baffled at why, when differences are discovered
between adults' brains structure and chemistry, the assumption is
almost always that this difference existed from birth? As we all
know, literally thousands of studies have revealed the crucial role
of early experience in sculpting our brain--i.e., brain plasticity.
So why isn't this discussed in these publications as a viable
alternative hypothesis?
That's a really important point, and fortunately, it does get some
attention from the better writers on the subject. I'm pretty sure
Simon LeVay discusses it in _The Sexual Brain_. And here's Marc
Breedlove, driving the point home:

"When does a sex difference in the CC appear? Despite an early report
that the sex difference in splenial width (favoring females) was
present in fetal brains (de Lacoste et al 1986), there have been no
replications and several failures to detect a sex difference in
children (Bell & Variend 1985, Clarke et al 1989, Allen et al 1991),
albeit with small sample sizes. Thus there is little reason to believe
the dimorphism in the CC is congenital."

--David Epstein
***@charm.net

Reference:

Breedlove SM. Sexual differentiation of the human nervous system.
Annual Review of Psychology 4. 45:389-418, 1994.

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Joan Warmbold
2006-04-04 22:13:48 UTC
Permalink
Interesting that the article you quote David is in the Annual Review of
Psychology, which has no particular mindset or agenda. It appears that if
a person is seeking publication in the "Genetics" journal as well as
neurobiological journals, the goal is to find inborn neurological and
genetically-based sources of behavior. This would provide an
understandable incentive for researchers in these fields who wish to get
published to assume whatever differences they detect in brains are inborn.
But I simply don't understand why there are not a larger number of
psychologists who contest the conclusions of these various publications.
There should be a larger and more vociferous challenge in some
format--i.e., in a APS journal. Scott Lillifield, how about it?

Joan
Post by David Epstein
BTW, I'm continually baffled at why, when differences are discovered
between adults' brains structure and chemistry, the assumption is
almost always that this difference existed from birth? As we all
know, literally thousands of studies have revealed the crucial role
of early experience in sculpting our brain--i.e., brain plasticity.
So why isn't this discussed in these publications as a viable
alternative hypothesis?
That's a really important point, and fortunately, it does get some
attention from the better writers on the subject. I'm pretty sure
Simon LeVay discusses it in _The Sexual Brain_. And here's Marc
"When does a sex difference in the CC appear? Despite an early report
that the sex difference in splenial width (favoring females) was
present in fetal brains (de Lacoste et al 1986), there have been no
replications and several failures to detect a sex difference in
children (Bell & Variend 1985, Clarke et al 1989, Allen et al 1991),
albeit with small sample sizes. Thus there is little reason to believe
the dimorphism in the CC is congenital."
--David Epstein
Breedlove SM. Sexual differentiation of the human nervous system.
Annual Review of Psychology 4. 45:389-418, 1994.
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